Talk:In-Game Help
Updating this page I am in the process of updating this page which looks to be incomplete and outdated. I will complete in the next day or two. Let me know what you think of the format I'm using for the first few sections of the help. Thanks --Mishatola 00:43, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Previous Format and Titles I am quite happy with both getting the pictures from the guidebook updated, and getting the rest of them (previously incomplete) filled in, :) Personally, though, I would like the previous format (gallery style with smaller pictures you click on) and the previous headers and titles returned). The pictures are so large on the page now that in the end the page will be gigantic and very difficult to navigate, and also they will all get cut off when the next host update comes through (it will be one column with the size they are at currently). The previous gallery coding on the page was done on purpose to handle those problems. And for the titles and headers, this page is intended to only be images from the guidebook as an easy reference source, comments and extra material are actually already on other pages on the wiki and won't be included on this page (and are generally discouraged on the wiki to begin with). ErinEmeraldflame 01:17, October 4, 2010 (UTC) The problem with the previous way it was done is the pictures where to small to read, pretending to be a user i quickly become frustrated with it. As long as the commentary is factual, why is it discouraged? If there are other pages of the wiki that cover these areas wouldn't this page be a good place to refer to them? What I want to include are comments where the help pages are wrong, or leaving little obvious things out. I was thinking about the size of the page, and dividing it up into several pages, each "TAB" of the in game help (by size I assume you mean physical reading size, as the pictures themselves are very small in data size kb). As for the host update coming through.. I need to understand what that is to undertand the objection. Where do i find out that information? --Mishatola 01:32, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Ok, lets see I see one of the issues now. You weren't supposed to read the pictures you first see on the page, they were thumbnails for larger images that could be viewed on the same page. The page was set up with picture galleries that could be quickly perused, and when you wanted to read the detailed information within each image, you simply clicked on them bringing up the larger image file. In fact, the older images were actually far higher quality images than the new ones, the new ones are kind of blurry. The number of total pages within the guide would make a page of large image files very difficult for most users to navigate, and its hard to get a sense of them when they take up a large amount of the screen. Now, the instructions at the top of the page did previously say to click on the images to bring up their larger counterparts, though you removed that piece of instruction. It would seem to me that this may demonstrate that the instructions need to be made clearer and perhaps a more noticeable font/font size, so they are not missed, though they need not be removed. Also, if the thumbnails in the gallery were too small to read to be able to gauge the content within each thumbnail, I can easily set up the gallery so that each picture has a caption making it easier to know which picture to click on. Regarding the headers and information, there has actually been a large amount of work done to standardize and re-standardize all the Basic Game Information on the Wiki so that all the pages can tie into each other through links back and forth. The previous headers were already changed somewhat to facilitate that process, so changing the names means that the page no longer fits the standardization on the Wiki, and they will have to be changed back to facilitate the linkages. Basically, this is the "Tabs" , and the headers were actually going to be turned directly into links which went to the other pages within the Basic Game Information sections. So actually, some of those headers were specifically changed to match the terms that are used universally throughout the wiki. But yes, there will be fast links between all the basic game information material, it is something that is underway right now. Many hours have been put into the revamping of the Basic Game Information pages and they will all be internally linked, its just a work in progress because the templates will be permitting a reorganization of many of the categories which will then allow for a more meaningful link process in the Basic Game Information pages. These extra pages have, for the most part, already been created, but they aren't all finished yet, and the purpose of this page in this setup is singular, to serve as a reference point for the In-Game Guide. Also, we are purposefully segregating the help-type information that comes from KingsIsle directly from any info pages on the wiki and both of those from the actual article pages. This is partly because the Wiki isn't a KingsIsle help-site, and not doing this led to huge numbers of requests on all sorts of pages for direct KingsIsle support, which was a burden on the Admins. So we are making very clear differentiations between the various pages of assistance on the wiki. In fact, the word "Help" is relegated on the wiki only for information that comes directly from KingsIsle or links to contact KingsIsle; the In-Game Guide is a direct extension of that. Encouraging "commentary" on any page guarantees opinions, discussion, and related edits, as opposed to factual information. This is why in the basic rules its posted to keep opinions, discussions, and related things on the talk pages to keep them out of the articles, its a matter of using the right words to encourage the right content. Trust me when I say not doing so leads to a lot of extra work over time, mainly for the admins. So, I'm hoping that we can figure out how to improve the page and information on the site, but also maintain the purpose of the page and pages on the Wiki and keep them both attractive, easy to navigate, easy to understand, and where each article continues to serve a singular purpose within the general style and rules of the Wiki. ErinEmeraldflame 05:39, October 4, 2010 (UTC) And I under stood what was supposed to happen with the thumbnails. I just found it frustrating to use. The instructions did not need to made clearer for my sake. It was just frustrating clicking on each image and waiting for it to load, and then having to close it to look at anything else. Being very clear about the purpose of the wiki (to give information about as opposed to actively help people in the game) may require some additional disclaimers? I suppose the word commentary should be avoided. This is not a discussion board. I expunged it from the article. What i want to do with these pages is clarify some of the points the in game help that may be confusing, or just wrong. It would be easy to add small additional facts (about the information presented, not the topics)and or references to other wiki material that expand on the in game help topic. Is this not the place to do this? --Mishatola 07:12, October 4, 2010 (UTC) This is not the place Dedicated pages already exist that discuss all of the material that you are are adding to the page (how gauntlets work, how quests work, and how how chat works, etc.) As I already said, this page was being prepped to link to all of those other pages, so that each page has a specific purpose. This page was slated for deletion, but I personally recovered it in order to make it into a quick reference to the guide pages that was integrated into the rest of the Wiki. So far, all of the new material you are adding is duplicating pages that are already on the site. Furthermore, the other pages already go into far more detail about those matters, are better labeled for that purpose, and are better organized. Redoing the page in this way will make poorly differentiated pages that do not fit within the style and structure of the Basic Game Information pages or the Wiki. The formatting also does not look good, and for some monitor types, you still have to click on the enlarged images to read them anyway, making the image-size change moot for those users. From our conversations, and based on the material you are adding, I do not feel that you have a good enough understanding of the Wiki as a whole in order to make these major changes that will ultimately influence the entire structure of a very important part of the site. In this context, I have moved your version of the page to Mishatola/Sandbox so that you can experiment with it, and have returned the page to its previous format. We are happy to engage in discussion about changes that are needed, but it is greatly preferred that discussion of changes that greatly affect format and structure are engaged in before the changes are made. As well, large changes are not generally done in article, but in separate areasd on the wiki so that they can be viewed and discussed before implementation. Thanks, ErinEmeraldflame 15:53, October 4, 2010 (UTC) I think you missed the point. The in game help is the starting point for a "young wizard" in search for how to play the game. In places where it is wrong or confusing I would have thought the wiki the perfect place to add clarification. I'm very sorry i was so very wrong about that. If perhaps I am not understanding you, please let me know where clarifications and corrections to the IN GAME HELP can be made.--Mishatola 01:54, October 5, 2010 (UTC) Perhaps the gauntlet info was a bad example of something that was done correctly in this wiki. But it will be cause i will go fix it. Took me a while to find it. One thing i don't understand is why we are duplicating all the info that is provided by KingsIsle. It can be confusing in spots and needs clarification but it is not bad. I suppose I shall see the vision of what it will be here on this wiki eventually.--Mishatola 02:23, October 5, 2010 (UTC) Starting Over Hey, why don't we start over on this. The Basic Game Information sections are very incomplete, and only very recently there has been some significant effort to revamp them. (I did a ton but have lately been more busy with the new templates.) Many of the pages I pulled out of black holes (never touched for a year with no categories) on the Wiki are still gross things that were put in place for a new purpose but not even renamed to that new purpose yet, and maybe some of them shouldn't even be in a visible part of the site right now. How about we talk about what's been done so far and what the hope/intent is and we can work from there? I can say what's been done and where it is, and then you can contribute what you think is needed? I also move that we move this general discussion to a page on the Wiki Editing Forum where it may be more appropriate? ErinEmeraldflame 03:33, October 7, 2010 (UTC) (message also posted on User Talk:Mishatola